Splitboard.com Forums

The World's first exclusive splitboard discussion forums






It is currently Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:10 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 4
I have been checking this site out for awhile now for reviews, etc and just purchased a Prior Khyber 160 and now I am on the hunt to upgrade my bindings. My main concerns out there being ridability, reliability and weight.

Looking at buyin something for next season and debating between sparks and karakoram (get on the waitlist now). I do not want to go to a hard boot, so I am trying to figure out which is superior.

Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:16 pm
Posts: 371
1. Do you already have the voile hardware?
2. Is money an object?
Voile Hardware $160+Sparks $299=$459
Karakoram = $599

So if you're starting from scratch the Karakoram is not that more than Voile (when you look at the overall investment). But if you've already go the Voile and can't return it then it's $299 vs $599 and that's a big difference. If money not an option than buy both :headbang:

_________________
It is diffucult to assess ones own fuckedupness
Jones Solution 164, Fuse baseplates w/BM Bisquits, Salomon Malamutes


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:08 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1538
Location: Colorado
Despite the hype, testing here indicated to me that the Voile interface with Voile slider plates is actually stiffer across the board than Karakoram. We compared two Venture Storms, one mounted with Voile hardware (and direct mount plate bindings), the other with the Karakoram set up. The Voile was clearly stiffer in terms of holding the two board halves in plane.
Easy test to do, take the assembled board, and place half on a sturdy bench and have one person hold it firmly (or stand on it) to the bench, then apply hand force to the other half of the board, as would happen during a turn. Note that special attention was paid to making sure all bolts were tight.
Controversial, perhaps, but this was an objective test, and the results were clear to both myself and my friend helping with it. As far as I can tell, the emphasis of the Karakoram design is to actively pull the board halves together, rather than making the interface stiff (door hinge effect) across the board.
The Spark baseplates are stiffer than the Voile slider plate, so these should result in even better performance.

_________________
Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:13 pm
Posts: 213
Thank you for sharing the beta, Barrows!

Spark has funky buckles, and people seem to blow the toe straps. I have purchased extras jic

I love the Karakoram clips on my NS split (not a cap, I hear that caps may hull a bit)

Cheers
Ivo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:22 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1538
Location: Colorado
Other riders have posted here that Spark and Karakoram source their straps/buckles from the same place-I do not know if this is true or not. I ride plates and hard boots, but if I was in softs (and depending on how the 2012 Deeluxe Sparks boots look I might put together a new soft set up for the hell of it) I would use the Blaze base plate, and perhaps select some different straps from my collection. It does seem like peole are breaking the straps a little too often.
I almost purchased a set of the Karakoram clips for retrofitting on my board, but the when we did the testing above, we performed the same test, without the bindings in place, just testing the clips. Voile was considerably stiffer, despite the simple design. Note-I do make an effort to periodically tighten the bolts holding the Voile Chinese hooks (and locktite them), they give a lot more interface stiffness when the bolts are tight (to the point that it takes some effort to rotate the hooks).
As a bonus, Sparks are considerably lighter than Karakoram. We shall see how light the new SL version of the Karakoram system is this fall when production units are available...

_________________
Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:18 pm
Posts: 601
Location: reno
The new Karakoram binders blow EVERY other split binding out of the water as the lightest binding weighing in at 678 grams. For those going to the Kali party next weekend, you get to see them for yourself. They mentioned bringing demos too!

_________________
my name IS mudd...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:13 pm
Posts: 213
Very interesting, glad to hear that Karakoram is improving the design - that's what we all want :D

I am not so concerned about weight right now though. I would be really excited to hear that Karakoram improves the adjustability and climbing efficiency.

As far as spares - I did get Union straps, ladders and buckles

@Barrows: I called and asked for Bola but he wasn't there, was told to send an e-mail to pre-order - which I did. I also mentioned your name. So far haven't heard anything back, guess I better follow up...

Cheers
Ivo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 4
Thanks for the info. I thought that the karakoram were lighter than the sparks...

For $600+ I would hope the karakoram's would live up to the hype. I like the idea... I can imagine the SL models will be even more $$$

There is always something tough about purchasing the first run of production models... Seeing how next year the SL will be never have been produced before, I may try out their existing system next year.

I have heard about the buckle issue on the Sparks... Carrying a spare set wouldn't be a huge deal, but sort of frustrating knowing that it might happen, although people are stating that the karakoram straps are the same quality as the sparks...

rughty, maybe your custom bindings would be something to check out too!

Thanks for the insight, it's great to have this resource available...


Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:25 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1538
Location: Colorado
Lerner:

"@Barrows: I called and asked for Bola but he wasn't there, was told to send an e-mail to pre-order - which I did. I also mentioned your name. So far haven't heard anything back, guess I better follow up... "

I would recommend that you keep calling back until you speak with Bola directly, to be sure. He is the owner of the shop, and the one person who really seems to know what is going on.

_________________
Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:38 pm
Posts: 819
Location: The Belly of Ham baby!!
A few weeks ago I rode Voile Light Rails for a weekend instead of my Karakorams. It was a great refresher course of splitboard systems!

There was no question from my experience that touring efficiency is better on the Karakoram axle system than on the Voile pin. It is simply darn near impossible to "ski" the Voile system "well". On the K Dawgs I can carve inbounds groomers in ski mode; lateral stiffness in tour mode is far tighter and seems to allow for much higher edge torques.

Barrows, what kind of objective measures did you take on your test? I've done similar tests with the Fuses, Light Rails, and Karakoram systems. I measured "inside edge shear force translation" with a ruler between the bindings in ride mode. During torsional flex tests with my feet strapped in, the middle edge can displace as much as 6 millimeters with the voile system. On the Karakoram interface I can get it to move between 2 and 3 millimeters. While riding, the pucks "feel like a splitboard", the split30's feel like a solid.

The other variable that seems important is for-aft translation of the binding on the board's surface. There simply is no amount of lateral "bending" of the Karakoram binding. On the pucks, there are fewer forces acting to "pull" the binding down onto the board. When you lean side-to-side, the binding flexes the plastic puck a few millimeters before it touches the topsheet. Some people like this kind of flex, but for me when I drive my knee down into the snow, I like the board to respond instantly.

After drawing quite a few free-body diagrams and doing over a year of testing on the binding, four main factors make the binding stiffer and more responsive to me:

1) They are metal...

2) Five points of contact, and they are wider.

3) Heelcup: instead of a baseplate + heelcup, all heel-to-toe force vectors are translated through one piece of material. The heelcup initiates an I-beam type of force transmission (the stiffest type) and cradles the foot much more securely.

4) Linkage system: pulls board together, and binding "down".

_________________
PROFESSIONAL AMBASSADOR OF STOKE


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:31 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1538
Location: Colorado
Russman:

I was testing the ability of the interface to allow the two boards halves to remain in plane (across the board, not longitudinally). In other words: the seam down the center of a split allows the board halves to pivot along that seam, as if the board was hinged. This effect translates to a less responsive ride going from toe to heel, and less leverage/power/control over the edge.
As described, the K interface allowed more angle to develop between the two board halves under the same application of force.
I have not tested longitudinal flex, from observation of the K system I would suspect that the K system would offer a stiffer interface fore and aft. I have no need for increased stiffness longitudinally though.
Do not get me wrong, I like a lot of what K is doing, and I look forward to Bryce and Tylers continued development of the system. I almost picked up some K clips (as you know, I have no need for soft bindings), but the testing I did indicated that the clips alone, in comparison to the Voile chinese hooks, did not produce the same level of across the board stiffness, note that I keep the Voile hooks really tight (the tightness of the hooks makes a big difference).

I agree totally that the touring interface of the K setup is superior to a stock Voile set up, very tight and torsionally stiff, and definitely a big improvement over the stock Voile set up-the Spark touring bracket is also a big improvement over Voile, and is significantly lighter than Voile or Karakoram.
My setup, with Dynafit toe piece is even lighter, and offers the gold standard of touring performance (wins all rando races and ski mountaineering comps).
I will be interested to see the 2012 product from Karakoram. If they can get the weight close to Spark, beef up the stiffness of the interface across the board (especially the clips), and change the baseplate design to allow for more stance options, it will be really cool.

One other thing, I have never tested the lightrails. They sure look flimsy though. I would expect a Spark Blaze baseplate, being machined from a single solid piece of aluminum, to offer way more stiffness than the lightrail. A carbon fiber slider plate would be ideal, but I have not figured out how to make one...yet.

_________________
Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 9
Thank you everyone for your great insight on both of these bindings. I am still swaying between both. The only thing I am solid on is my decision on board (Venture Zephyr). While the west has some great powder days (experienced them visiting my brother in summit county), the east coast has to worry about a lot of ice and variable conditions. In the ADK area the weather can be in the 0-10 degree range... my concern is what will freeze and crack. I received a comment stating a single pin insert can produce less risk at replacement versus an entire system shifting between ride and tour mode. I know the 14ers in CO have some tough weather so I'd be curious to hear how the gear held up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Karakoram VS Spark
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:39 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
ecrider wrote:
Thank you everyone for your great insight on both of these bindings. I am still swaying between both. The only thing I am solid on is my decision on board (Venture Zephyr). While the west has some great powder days (experienced them visiting my brother in summit county), the east coast has to worry about a lot of ice and variable conditions. In the ADK area the weather can be in the 0-10 degree range... my concern is what will freeze and crack. I received a comment stating a single pin insert can produce less risk at replacement versus an entire system shifting between ride and tour mode. I know the 14ers in CO have some tough weather so I'd be curious to hear how the gear held up.


Good choice on the board. I have the new one, 159, it's the most well made splitboard I've seen. Superior craftsmanship if the design fits you.

As far as choosing bindings go, I think you'll find both systems to be nice. I bought the K's because the money wasn't an issue and I liked the design. I'm a person who really gets excited about touring, but keeps a soft shoe so the SL's kinda stood out at the time. It's more on your personality really. Dyna is gonna tour fast and be awesome, but like every system we have for splitboarding, there are trade offs. Go for what speaks to you, but you won't lose either way imo.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  





Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group