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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:07 am 
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To address sole length:

The TLT5 sole is about the same length as the older versions of the Burton Driver X. I have a size 10 Driver X, and a size 28 TLT5, these have the same sole length. The newer Driver X models have a slightly reduced sole length, supposedly, but when I tried them on I had to go up a size in them, making the difference nil.
Other AT boots are slightly longer than comparable soft boots, by slightly, I am talking about maybe 5 mm, and yes, it is possible to grind the boot a little to make this a non-issue (a table mounted belt sander works great for this).
The boots that usually seem to be more of a problem in terms of sole length are many of the mountaineering boots. I have tried using them (with a highback binding and a taller liner) in the past, and always had problems with unacceptable overhang.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:47 am 
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Location: Denver
As far as BSL, I dont have a problem but I also have a size 28 (307mm BSL). Right now its mounted at 0 degrees backfoot on a 25 waist snowboard. No issues yet, but I havent ridden steep ice or corn to truly test for overhang. I have a 26.3 waist NS that I can fall back on if it becomes an issue. Sasquatch feet riders are kinda screwed either way without a really wide board or duck stance. They only go up to 30.5 anyway (327mm BSL). TLT 5s have the shortest BSL of the Dynafit fleet. The fitwells would provide more of an overhang challenge than the TLT 5's.

I wouldnt pay $700 for TLTs, But I never pay full price for anything if I can avoid it. Found my TLTs over the summer for $250 slightly used on craigslist.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:25 am 
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Some details on overhang/clearance. I tend to be very sensitive to having too much boot/binding overhang, as I sometimes find myself on steep icy slopes, where too much overhang can really be an issue.
I test for overhang by mounting the boot on the board, and laying a piece of 2 x 4 or equivalent across the edge and against the farthest protruding point of the boot/binding system. I try to get to at least a 60 degree angle between the block and the board (simulating a 60 degree slope) without any contact between boot/binding and slope (block).
Note, that plate bindings have the advantage of no heel loop sticking out, which is often the contact point on soft systems on the heelside. On the other hand, some plate bindings (voile plate) have a quite bulky toe lever which contacts the snow fairly early. One of the reasons the Phantom bindings use the CC toe lever bail assembly is that the lever is pretty low profile. But, I suspect that we will see futher developments which result in even lower profile toe levers in the future.

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Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 473
Location: New Castle, Colorado
I like to weigh and say that I have patiently waited and purchased Scarpa F1 AT Boots, Burton Race Plates bindings, Dynafits toe pieces / Spark adapters for under or near the price of what a quality softboot set up. Compare:

$688 for DEELUXE Spark BOOTS AND SPARK BURNER BINDINGS
[*]http://www.backcountry.com/deeluxe-spark-snowboard-boot-mens
[*]http://www.backcountry.com/deeluxe-spark-snowboard-boot-mens

I was able purchased two quality hard boot setups
[*] $340 each for Scarpa F1 boots through Sierra Trading Post end-of-season sales,
[*]http://www.sierratradingpost.com/scarpa-f1-at-ski-boots-dynafit-compatible-for-men-and-women~p~2787k/

[*] About $90 dollars each (average cost); Purchase 3 pair of used Burton Race Plate Bindings (can only be purchased used, longer made) on ebay. Also purchased so Snow-Pro Race bindings on ebay for similar cost.
[*] Dynafit toe pieces and adapters
[*]$230 one new Dynafits toes and adapters from Spark R & D.
[*][*]http://store.sparkrandd.com/dynafit.html
[*]$175 used pair of Dynafits toes and adapters
Total Cost $680 dollars.

Also, I have purchased Bomber Sidewinder splitboard bindings for $300 and I am very interested in purchasing Phantom bindings. However with a little bargain hunting one can find an a Hard boot setup for similar cost of softboots.

Overall, I will save money over the life of this hard boot setup compare to a the lifespan of the softboot setup.

Also, I ride stock F1s with the $30 Eliminator Custom Tongue. What I have found these added tongues this has soften forward lean for me. These boots allow me to have a snug lower fit boot fit (no heel lift ) ( w/ molded liners) and a slightly more relaxed upper cuff.

What I have found is that over the years I no longer have to crank down my AT boots to get an excellent ride. If needed, I can quickly tighten down my boots for split-skiing.

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Venture Storm R 163 (2010), Dynafit Binding/Sparks Adapter, Scarpa F1 Boots, Bomber Sidewinder Bindings * Prior 172 Fissile (2012) Dynafit Binding/Sparks Adapter


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Powder_Rider wrote:
I like to weigh and say that I have patiently waited and purchased...

Interesting. That exact setup you describe drove me back to soft boots. To each their own, I guess. :wink:

A few guys mention "$$ savings over the life of product X". Seriously? In a First-World fringe sport, we are resorting to highly dubious economic rationalizations?

Carry on... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Which boot will wear out more quickly, an AT boot or a softboot?

To be fair, I have ridden in Hard Boots since the early 90's. Over the years, I tried soft boots (such as the Driver X). For me, F1s ride as well as or better than the Drivers.

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Ride the Pow!
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Venture Storm R 163 (2010), Dynafit Binding/Sparks Adapter, Scarpa F1 Boots, Bomber Sidewinder Bindings * Prior 172 Fissile (2012) Dynafit Binding/Sparks Adapter


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:38 am 
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Location: Udapimp, Idaho
well put Barrows
Everyone should certainly ride what they want, this is snowboarding after all, and there are many different ways to enjoy the sport. The only thing which really makes me upset about this discussion, is that unsupported, zealous, viewpoints tend to curtail development and innovation. I have been riding since the first boards were introduced, and I think it is shame that we still do not have a dedicated, ground up, plastic shelled boot for freeriders. The boot which could be possible given the tech available could eclipse the performance of all currently available soft or hard boot setups, but this development does not happen, partially because manufacturers (and I have discussed this with them) see that such a boot would face unsubstantiated discrimination/un-acceptance in the marketplace, no matter how good the performance is.

I'm a zealot :soapbox: And don't care If I come of unreasonable.
Like B said There are no hardbooters that haven't tried softies, and most HBrs still use soft setups for powder.
Fine w/me
Since '90 I've advocated that a plate binding with a buckled [b]SOFT[b] plastic shell can emulate the flex of ANY soft boot setup and eliminate the hassle, bulk and durability issues of straps and laces( in 89-90all soft gear was still crap) Something like Damians Kolflachs could have ruled the market if developed further but the "snowboarders" using ski-lifts at a ski area were so totally loath to be considered a "skier". Racism by any other name.
My issue is not being considered a skier, it;s that laces and straps are more of a hassle to use and are not as durable.

In over 20yrs riding plastic boots I've never once wished I had laces &straps in stead; every time I;ve ever used softies I've wished I had the support & response of hardboots

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:29 am 
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As the best rider on this board, I hereby declare soft boots to be superior!
Damn, I should probably be out riding or something... :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:19 pm 
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jimw wrote:
I think a big part of the reason folks get so worked up in this debate is that folks from both sides come off sounding like closed-minded assholes to the other side. :deadhorse: For example, I think barrows is probably a cool dude in Real Life, but from my perspective a lot of his posts come off sounding like "well soft boots might work OK for you, but you're probably not doing anything serious, and you've probably never tried a REAL hardboot setup, and if you tried hardboots before and didn't like them, it's clearly because you didn't do the right mods." I don't think that's necessarily the intent, but that's the way it comes off sounding a lot. Then there the other guys like BG and russman (I've ridden with both of them and they're both cool dudes in Real Life) who come off sounding like "anyone riding hard boots can't possibly have any style and that's not REAL snowboarding". Sometimes I get a bit of a kick out of just reading the posts and watching everyone get worked up... but then sometimes it gets old. :)


Very, very much agree with JimW! I haven't been on this board as much, (since life is busy), but whenever I went through pages of posts over the last year or so, there were 2 things you could rely on:

Barrows pushing his Hardboot thing and Brooks pissing someone of with his provoking comments. (Oftentimes Barrows of course ;) )

Barrows, my name is Henning, I'm from Germany, riding and splitting for a long time, most of my touring friends in Europe were skiers and I really don't care what people use to enjoy the mountains. I moved to the states 5 1/2 years ago. Been out on the Eastside a bit with the guys and I'm friends with Jim. Just saying this, because I hate this anonymous messageboard bullshit and witnessing how people treat each other, just because they are not face to face.

So
jimw wrote:
well soft boots might work OK for you, but you're probably not doing anything serious, and you've probably never tried a REAL hardboot setup, and if you tried hardboots before and didn't like them, it's clearly because you didn't do the right mods.
hit it on the head for me as well, it's exactly how I perceive your agenda. And you already apologized for this and I accept that, because I also think that you are probably a good dude.

But perhaps you're wondering why you are perceived this way and this is what I have to say about that from my point of view:

Your basic message is simple: HB set-up done right is far superior to any soft boot set-up for serious splitboard mountaineering.

This is a bit a slap in the face and somewhat disrespectful to anyone here who's been doing serious stuff for a long, long time in softboots. You have to realize why you get aggressive push back here, right!?

You also like to pepper a lot of your posts with what I consider quite a bit of bragging. Perfect example above:
barrows wrote:
I try to get to at least a 60 degree angle between the block and the board (simulating a 60 degree slope) without any contact between boot/binding and slope (block).
Yes I get it, 60 degree slope, didn't need to mention that!

You know what I think when I read stuff like that? 'Here barrows goes again, making it a point telling us what gnarly stuff he climbs and rides.' (and that you should be doing that in Hardboots) This is how I perceive a lot of your posts! And based on reactions you get I believe I'm not the only one. In every thread that you're involved in. You overdo it! You do not need to constantly let the world know. We get it.
Not that I don't understand your gear fanaticism. Heck if I would constantly find myself on life or death terrain, I better make damn sure my equipment does the job.

Am I curtailing innovation just because I want to keep riding the type of boots that I've always been riding and like? If you think that is the case, then I apologize to you that I am screwing up progress towards your dream market.

I think the problem is that you are trying to force a paradigm shift via relentless messageboard arguing, which indeed gets old.

Ride with your friends, influence them by positive example, let it spread naturally. Be humble. Change takes time. You're probably better off trying to convince some superstar to lead the change and mod some boots for/with them, than to keep arguing with people who have a very different opinion. That's a waste of energy. If it really is superior and the future for splitboard mountaineering then it will be someday.

My 2 cents :thatrocks:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:01 pm 
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Schwalbster, perhaps English is your second language, although you appear to be fluent to me, so maybe that is not it. I do not speak German, being somewhat a typical ignorant American in terms of how many languages I can understand.

To be entirely clear:

"Your basic message is simple: HB set-up done right is far superior to any soft boot set-up for serious splitboard mountaineering."

That is not my message, my message, which is an opinion to which I am entitled is as follows: A well sorted hard boot system is superior to any soft boot system for virtually all splitboarding, with the exception of close to the road pure freestyle sessions.

It appears that some folks here are perceiving some kind of hidden agenda on my part, trying to infer somehow that "I am radder then you" or something to that effect, there is nothing like this on my mind. Firstly, I do not believe that hard boots are for snowboard mountaineering only, far from it, I prefer them for all of my splittin', only a small percentage of which is mountaineering. So, if people think by my use of hard boots, somehow I am making a sideways inference about my "rad mountaineering skills" they are in error and making things up.

Indeed, my opinion is that a current well set up hard boot system, is superior to a current well set up soft boot system. There is a difference between my opinion, and say, Brooks': I have ridden almost all other systems currently available, or available since 1983. To the best of my knowledge, Brooks has never ridden a well set HB system, and it appears, that few of the riders who criticize the use of HBs for snowboarding have any experience with a good HB set up.

Also, what is the damage of me making these statements of my opinion? A "slap" in the face? Why? Do you feel threatened somehow? I guess I just do not get it.
I offer my opinion and experience here for the benefit of those who might be interested in trying a hard boot set up, if you are not interested, no worries man. I have seen a number of riders make the switch, and all of them have been very happy with the results. I am in debt to this site, thanks Chris, for the sharing of knowledge of all things split.

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Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:15 pm 
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b0ardski wrote:
Racism by any other name.

........

Really?


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:40 am 
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Guys I've read every page and I enjoy it. I find BG funny and Barrows informative. I've ridden with many people from this site and there all good people and legit riders. The problem is people over think things and try to put words in other peoples mouths......don't. If you don't like the topic don't participate in the discussion.

It's fun to talk shit and dork out, that's what this site is for. Your getting multiple perspectives from passionate people, who cares. Are you really "that offended", I don't get it. Some of you guys need to get out with the boys and remember that that's what we do...we talk shit, giggle like girls and hug each other when were super happy.

Unfortunately the people who have got on here and tried to tell others how to act have only come off sounding like self- righteous guys on their :soapbox:

What soft booters or anyone else should notice about Joey's shredding is how he interprets the mountain, slashes that feature, pops that one. A skier doesn't see the mtn that way only true shredder, one with the mountain, surfing the earth. His gear is unrelevant but like barrows said he puts to rest a lot of the shit talked by a few that still don't see HB as one viable option. I will be buying the new Dynafit TLT when I get the coin to BALANCE my quiver of gear. There's a time and place for everything. And I will appreciate all of Barrow's post when I do and need to start making some adjustments.

Take care.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:44 am 
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grubbers wrote:
b0ardski wrote:
Racism by any other name.

........

Really?

well, sorry for that, a little over the top.
I was in a pissy mood and on a rant.

The prevalent Antiskier attitude back in the day always blew my mind.

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